*Warning* Don’t read this unless you have sometime on your hands.
Or maybe you want to do a little bit at a time. But it’s interesting I think. So anyway, I was supposed to have left for Houston Fri but decided against it because I was sleepy and didn’t want to get on the road. Of course, sleepy was only in reference to how I felt about driving. Sitting in a room leaves me wide awake. So I got on the computer and start rummaging through blog sites and then friend’s pages looking for interesting blogs. A couple of weeks ago I had stumbled on a blog from this girl I didn’t know who went to Franklin while I wasn’t there. Now I’m not going to make this a black woman/white woman issue but I responded to her blog contradicting some points she made. She responded in kind to me with appreciation for my opinion. So again I went out searching for a thought provoking blog. Well the one I stumbled upon was this med student/poet who was a friend of a friend via Myspace. Most of the people who read my blog probably are aware that I’m pretty opinionated. And if I feel strongly about something I feel it my responsiblity to myself and my integrity to speak up about it. I had been a little more lax this year than usual. But being passive is a waste of the air I’m breathing. At any rate she did not take too kindly to my opinions. But instead of being cordial she decided a better idea was to get defensive. At first response I realized that this wasn’t going anywhere good. So I continued the correspondence maintaining a very civil and rational tone. As I assumed she did not. I appreciate that she stood her ground, that she was right, at all costs. So for your reading pleasure I have here the transcripts of her blog, and our responses to each other via comments and messages.
Ok, so I’m posting this under games, because it really just doesn’t apply to relationships. It really applies to dating and there is no REAL category for that. So why NOT games. I mean games DEFINITELY apply to dating.
Ok, so WHY am I writing this? Here we go…
I met this man in the grocery store. Ok, let me restate, I was accosted by this dude in the grocery store. I was picking out soup, searching for this can of Three Cheese Mushroom Campbell’s Select, when this man ran up on me, saying, “You shouldn’t be down there. You should have a man doing that for you.”
Ok, WTF?! Is THAT the best you got? WHO SAYS THAT?! The jacked up thing is that if I had been attracted to him, I would have probably giggled and smiled. But since I wasn’t, I didn’t. (Yeah, for the men out there…just in case you didn’t know, let me put it out there for you–If a woman is attracted to you, it damn near doesn’t matter WHAT you say. But if we ain’t feelin you, it doesn’t matter what you say; we’re not hearing it) So, I just looked up and said, “I got it.”
He then persisted to invade my space and waste my time. He asked me my name. I told him. He asked me if he could keep in touch with me. I looked him up and down, sized up his uncut, unbrushed hair, wrinkled inside out shirt, dingy pants, absolutely filthy shoes and told him I had a boyfriend–which I don’t, but I still said I did. He then went into those famous next words, “So you can’t have friends?”
Ok, so why is it not enough for a woman to tell you that she has a man for you to stop? Either she really does have a boyfriend or she is trying to let you off easy. Either way, take the hint. DAMN!
I mean, we went back and forth with me saying things like, “I don’t think my man would like that very much,” and “How do you think you would feel if your girl gave her number out to some man.” Then he would retort with things like, “You gotta be able to meet other people,” and “It’s ok to have friends.” This dude actually FOLLOWED ME THROUGH THE STORE!!! So what did I do?
I gave him my number.
*sigh* I know. *shrug* I just wanted him to leave me alone. *sigh* I really did. I am just no good at giving the wrong number. Usually I would just give one of my girl’s numbers, but my closest friend just got married and I’m sure her husband ain’t havin that. So I figured if he got my voice mail, then all would be good.
Ok, so he has my number, now and I have peace for a little while. He doesn’t call me that night. Great…
He calls me at 7:30 the next morning. WTF?! I answer the phone and in a very “are you fucking crazy” tone, I’m like, “Look, I’m on my way to class.” The reality is that he didn’t know I had to be at school. He didn’t know WHAT was going on in my life. I could have been sleeping–it would make perfect sense. What kind of person feels like it’s ok to call someone you don’t know that early in the morning?
Ok, so I took care of that…no problem. Do you know he called me later on that day, like 4 hours later, while I was still in class. Then he called me that night.
The next day, Friday, he called me 4 times, spreading the calls out through the day. I finally answered the phone and said, “Look, I have an exam on Monday. Actually, I have 2. I am not going to answer any of your calls.” He said, very defensively, “I didn’t know.” I said, “Yeah, I know. But I thought you would understand when I didn’t answer the phone. I will call you when I get some time.”
The truth is that I DID have two exams on Monday and I really don’t talk when I have exams. But do you know this dude called me mid day. MID DAY! I checked my phone after I got out of my exam and realized I had a missed call from this pressed ass man! Crazy. He called me two more times. Needless to say, I didn’t answer the phone either time. He also called me today. Terrible. He called me twice before 6pm. I politely silenced my phone and then I sent him a text message–
This is what it said:
I’m sorry. I think it was a bad idea to give out my phone number.
Please don’t call me again.
He texted me back and this is what he said:
I don’t know what your problem is but you clearly have one you must
be one of these sad black women I will pray for you Peace
Note: no punctuation at all
I should have let it go, but of course I hadn’t given him any of my attitude, yet and I felt like he was entitled, so this is what I texted him back:
Save your prayers. Just because I don’t want to talk to you doesn’t make
me sad. It makes me SELECTIVE. You’re PRESSED. Have a great
He actually texted me back and I deleted it, but this is what it said:
God did not teach me to insult God taught me to love I will still pray for
you God bless you (or some shit like this. Note: he insulted me in the 1st
text he sent)
I decided that I had said my piece and I wouldn’t text him again…but I also decided at that moment that I would write this blog.
I mean, why is it not ok to tell a man that you are not interested? Its a mess. I partially fault women, though. We have not stood firm on “NO.” Somehow we feel bad for telling a man, “No.” That’s nuts. It’s crazy. However, I will also say that part of it is fear. A lot of these men do not respect women and as soon as you say no, the first word out of their mouths is “bitch” or something like this. And women just don’t want to deal with it–I know I don’t.
But, I am over it. I challenge every woman reading this–the next time a man approaches you and you are not interested in him, don’t tell him you have a boyfriend. Don’t give him the wrong number. And don’t give him your number and avoid his call. Tell him, “No.” Let him know that you are not interested. It’s not a good idea. Whatever. Just do it. And if he catches an attitude, just deal with it. Shrug it off and laugh at him. Shit–write a blog about it.
Ok, I guess I have taken up enough of your time. But I do want to say this…the dude who stalked me, his name is Mark. I’m not sure about his last name, but that’s his first. He’s about 5’11″/6′, dark brown complexion, narrow shoulders. That’s the best I got. LOL. Hope you don’t run into him LMAO
My 1st response:
It’s amazing to me the subtle difference between being accosted and being approached. If you’re attracted to one man and he says anything that comes off the top of his head that doesn’t involve calling you out your name than it’s an approach, and you respond with giggles and invitation. But for someone you’re not attracted to it’s an accost, just because he’s persistent? So at any rate you decide to give him your number, even though he’s already created a culture of persistence, and you somehow assume he won’t be persistent in the same manner until you actually give him attention? Now I’m not placing the blame squarely at your feet, but the fact is I haven’t come across his blog about you yet so I have to wait for his audience. Certainly he should probably read the context clues to gauge your interest. But from what it sounds like to me he wasn’t ever impolite in his approach (accost). And he didn’t do anything to overstep his boundaries until he realized he had them. True it’s not necesairly a good idea to call a woman over and over if she doesn’t answer, but like you said you were not upfront with him about your (lack of ) interest in him. So it’s unfair to be upset at this man because he is trying to hard to engage you as if he should know what’s going on with you. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you’re wrong in any way for being unattracted to that man. You can’t help that. But it is unfair to expect him to know that even though your behavior (giving him the REAL number) seems to indicate otherwise. Furthermore, if this were some man that you were attracted to chances are like you said it would never have turned into an accost. The man you were attracted to would have been recieved better by you and would have been given a better chance to make a good impression even though the man you are attracted to might have bhaved in the exact same fashion if you handled him the way you handled the unattractive guy. I don’t think women realize how difficult it can be for a man to approach a woman sometimes. Because far too frequently women for whatever reason look at it as a hassle instead of a compliment to be approached. What does that say…for someone to express an interest in you is a burden to you just cause you don’t think they’re cute? What if you ran into Oprah in the supermarket, or Nikki Giovanni. And for whatever reason they just decided they didn’t like you. So when you approached them simply to say how fond you are of them as people they turn their nose up because they aren’t interested in your apreciation. How would that make you feel? Women get the luxury of being sought after by guys so in this game (which it is exactly that, as you said) Men are at a disadvantage in that often they are forced into creating an interest from nothing. This man has no reason to talk to you other than you moved something in him. But that isn’t good enough to make you want to talk to him because you (fairly) haven’t been moved. So now it’s his job to convince you otherwise, without the benefit of knowing how to. That’s no easy task, trust me. I’ve been there myself. All I’m saying is there are a lot of women (and I’m not saying this about you in particular) who do a lot of complaining about the lack of good men. But these same women turn their nose up and give a guy a hard time within 5 seconds of meeting him even though he’s complimented them by extending themselves and putting their pride on the line. Just think about this…why would there be any good men when good men get cold shoulders and the run around? Sorry for being so long winded.
Her 1st reply:
Yes, this WAS long winded. Accost: to approach and speak to often in a challenging or aggressive way. Approach: to make advances to especially in order to create a desired result (which I suppose could be aggessive, but doesn’t carry the negative connotation that “accost” does). The difference is NOT in the attraction to the man; the difference is in the APPROACH of the man. If a man is intentionally placing himself in my space even after being told he was not needed or wanted, then that is him accosting me. My attraction to him is in the RECEPTION. If you’ve been blown off, then walk away–this is a woman trying to be nice. But even more so than that, I was WILLING to give him a chance even AFTER I wasn’t attracted to him. What I wasn’t willing to do was be stalked by him. As far as his behavior, it doesn’t matter if I was attracted to him or not. If you press/sweat/stalk a woman, she is not going to feel you, contrary to popular belief. There have been plenty of men who have been wonderful at first glance but then crumble when you get them beyond a “look-see.”As for that “good man” cry, it is not in my opinion that he is a good man. And I am so tired of men whining about “women don’t know how to deal with a good man,” and “good men get walked over.” If you check my other blog postings, you wouild notice that I write about AT LEAST one very “good guy” and I don’t say anything about THAT MAN pressing me because he didn’t stalk me. And if in fact, this rant was NOT about my blog, then please place your comments on your own page where they pertain to what YOU are thinking
My reply to her reply:
Well, I agreed with you that he probably should have made an evaluation of the situation before continuing to “accost” you. But it seems you have an inflated view of the word stalk. At any rate, I certainly wasn’t suggesting that he was a “good man” I obviously don’t know anything about the guy except your evaluation of him. Additionaly I was not going that in depth into the “good guy” argument. What I was saying is that women complain about there not being any good guys (and I prefaced it by saying this was not directed towards you, since I don’t know if you complain about there not being any) but a lot of them take the same attitude to guys approaching them. That being, when guys approach the initial response from women turns it into an accost. And I agree wholeheartedly that men should take no for an answer, I’m just saying why does women’s first answer have to be no so frequently? Also I was hoping you would address my issue about it being a burden and not a compliment to be approached.
Her reply to that:
and as I (emphasis on I) was saying, if your comment has nothing to do with what I wrote, then don’t put it on my page. As for how often/frequently a woman says no, this should not EVEN be something you ask about. Women say no when they WANT to say no. Doesn’t matter how frequently or in what context. And it’s not a “burden” to be approached…it’s a burden to be harrassed, which is what it is if a woman consistently tells you no. In the meantime, if you want to have any more discussions, please don’t use my blog page as a means of addressing only me. It would be far more effective if you carried on a dialogue via email. Anything else that seems like a rant, I will delete.
My reply to that on the blog: *deleted*
Well it does have to do with what you wrote. You are making a point about women being approached by guys. And I made a counterpoint that women should not be so defesive about being approached. But I wasn’t addressing only you. Seeing as it is a public blog I was open to feedback from anyone. It just so happens you were the only responder.
My first Message via Myspace (this came in conjunction with my last post which hadn’t been deleted yet):
As for addressing you personally…
I agree with you that women say no when they want. But why shouldn’t that be addressed? If, in fact, these are the same women who pose the question “where are the good men?” then apparently these women are seeking answers. If they have issue with the way things work then they need to be asking all the questions. Not just the ones that appeal to their sensibilities. Women want to know why guys suck, maybe they sould ask themselves why their initial response to men is to be on the defensive. Maybe if women stopped WANTING to say no as an initial response they might have a greater pool of men to choose from.
Secondly, I can see how you say it’s a burden to be harrassed. But it doesn’t apply here. You were only harrassed after the initial approach which you immidiately took as a burden because (at your own admission) the guy wasn’t attractive enough to you. You had already made your decision that you didn’t want his company. Therefore any offering of it was a burden. Which again, I submit, is awfully pretentious. How do you plan to explain to God on Judgement day that one of his children wasn’t beautiful enough to merit your attention? If you don’t like him cause of it, fine. But if you don’ extend him the same priveleges as someone aesthtically pleasing than it’s only adding to the problem of the misconceptions that are out there about guys (good and bad ones)
Lastly. It’s your blog so I respect your censorship. But I submit to you, what’s really the point of a blog if not to stimulate the kind of banter that will allow us emotional growth. If all you want is a bunch of cackling hens and yes men then perhaps you should limit your blog exposure to those who will give you responses that you want to hear. However, you made a coscious decision that you would make your poems available to all the world in spite of the possibility of losing your rights to it because you want any audience that will gain from it. So you, being a writer, shouldn’t want to limit the audience to only those that will Amen everything you say in your expository writing. If there was no challenge then everyone would have just reproduced the same things over since Shakespeare. IF there was never an expression of a difference of opinion two sides would never come to an understanding. So why deny your audience (and they are yours, cause they would not be my audience were it not for your blog) a perspective that challenges yours if it’s one that could be an effective learning tool if not something that will just open their mind to other possibilities?
Her response to my message:
Firstly, I don’t agree with ANYTHING you’ve said and that’s interesting because I’m someone who usually finds something in every argument.
Secondly, I’m not interested in engaging in a debate with you on how women step over a good man. That’s not what my blog was about (which is what you ALREADY said and the ONLY thing I agreed with). So you should have that debate with someone who HAS written a blog about it.
Thirdly, if men stopped behaving as though a woman was supposed to behave any differently that the way she ACTUALLY does, then there would be no need for debate. And women have an idea of what they want. If they are saying “No” to you (or anyone for that matter), you simply don’t fit what they want. She is not interested. She doesn’t want to see that you are “beautiful on the inside.” And “No” may not always be her first response, just her first response to you (or any other dude that doesn’t fit what she wants). Let it go.
Fourthly, maybe I didn’t relay it properly in my blog, I may have to go back and re-read it since I wrote it about 3 months ago, but what he did WAS harrass me. I told him no at least 3 times before I gave in. “No” shoulda had him steppin the FIRST time. And no, he wasn’t attractive…AT ALL…but the reality is that every man has that 1st moment to make an impression that can change the course of the interaction. Which is why I’ve dated men previously whom I didn’t find attractive. But he INITIALLY wasn’t attractive to me AND he had a wack line–2 strikes is all it takes.
As for censoring my blog. You had it right the first time–MY PAGE, MY DECISION. So your opinions are not needed. As for the “amen” (as you put it), not necessary, but neither is a long ass response that is damn near as long as my blog that loses it’s focus and starts to address things that have nothing to do with what I’ve written–dp that on your own page. As for my poems, I’ve done some research and their safe…not your business, but I figured that since you used it as a point of argument, I would clarify. And for your opinions on me being a writer and where I SHOULD stand, please note that you don’t know me and don’t REALLY know where I stand. Besides, who are YOU to say where ANYONE should stand with respect to what they do. You can’t be serious.
And for the record, you ALSO don’t know about my belief system. If you did, you would KNOW not to use God in ANY argument with me. You have no idea if I even believe in God.
We dont’ share perspective and I don’t think we ever will. Also, because of your “approach” I’m no longer interested.
My final response:
Well, I can see from your ever-defensive tone that you obviously have no idea how to have a rational debate (please don’t feel the need to reiterate that’s not what you want cause you have already expressed that, even though that’s not at all true because you still took the time to give a rebuttal to each of my arguments. Unless of course what you meant to say is I don’t want a debate, I want to give a lecture) I can clearly see you are one of those women who are too spoiled to ever listen to anything that contradicts what they are saying. Maybe you don’t agree with anything I’ve said, and that’s fine, but you’ve been nothing but impolite and irrational in any and all of your responses. I see you’ve already taken the liberty of deleting my last post, but not my first two, probably because you feel some self-righteousness about you for thinking you’ve put me in my place or something. I appreciate people who write and take the time to express themselves. I found your blog and thought I might exchange thoughts and ideas with someone who was articulate enough to write a coherent blog, and made an incorrect assumption that she would be receptive of views that didn’t directly corelate with hers or result in the necessary adulation in order to be allowed to post on her public blog. So your (lack of) interest is completely irrelevant because at this point I’m not interested to impart any of my perspective on your deaf ears. At any rate don’t worry about blocking me from your blog or limiting your readership. I can assure you I won’t trouble you by posting there again. If you ever do change your mind though, you are always welcome at my blog. Please don’t feel the need to continue this correspondence with your standard negativity and defensiveness. I’m solid and cannot be taken down a peg or two by someone who isn’t a big enough individual to make room for others opinions in her little microcosm. This will be my last note to you on this subject.
Lovely. In all honesty the only thing about this episode that upset me was the people (guys) who had responded to her blog initially. Two guys wrote her to tell her they were sorry she had to go through her ordeal, and share with her that they hate when guys are bugaboos blah, blah, blah. People’s houses have been destroyed by the tsunami but she gets their deepest sympathies? Yeah right. Niggas will say anything to try to hit. That’s what her blog should really be about. I’m sure all the cosigning played a small part in me actually deciding the better of it to go ahead and send her the blog reply anyway.
Mark from the grocery store…if you’re out there. I got your back bruh!